Assignment | Steps

test

 Rev. CJ Dunford

Week 4 – Design Thinking - Step-by-Step Exercises and Practice in Human Centered Design

24 October 2025

I interviewed my office-mate and friend Rumi at the temple on the task of making an egg (salad) sandwich. We didn’t actually have the time to have her make the sandwich for the interview, but I asked her about the experience which yielded a lot of interesting information.

She chose this particular activity because she felt it had a deeper meaning to her, relating to aging and doing things with care and intention as a personal aspiration for her. Rumi is from Japan, and we often talk about things we love there along with many other different things, especially food, in the office together. I believe our professional relationship (me as minister and her as a member of our sangha) played out in her decision to talk about the profundity of carefully making an egg sandwich in this more time-consuming way. In spite of this implicitly formal relationship, her body language and tone were very informal and relaxed as she described the way in which she made the sandwich.

I tried very hard not to ask any leading questions nor any yes/no questions, and after reviewing the recording, I think I succeeded. Because I wasn’t able to interview her while doing the action, I asked a lot of clarifying questions (what type of mayonnaise, salt, eggs, bread, sugar, bread—is the bread toasted, etc.) and she explained each of the choices.

 Our friendship made this a really fun and easy interview to do, and I believe that I’d like to practice empathic interviews going forward in a way that mirrors Buddhist practices of cultivating compassion & understanding: starting with the close, beloved, and familiar, then gradually working toward those with whom I have more neutral/distant relationships, and eventually with people I don’t know well or even dislike. It's practice.

I have done interviews as part of research before and the subject-matter of these interviews was quite personal—questions around spirituality, meaning & purpose, sexual orientation and gender identity & expression—and I regularly provide spiritual care and counseling as part of my work in the ministry. I can certainly see a lot of overlap in the skills required, especially in reading tone of voice and body language. In fact, maybe I’m not sure how an empathic interview is different from doing spiritual interviews and providing spiritual care and counseling? I’ve never approached those other situations as an opportunity to “fix” anything, but rather a chance to listen and listen a lot, and then maybe share a little bit of encouragement and insight.

As a side note, I met with my cohort today to discuss some of the formal procedures in which we will need to engage to foster collaboration between our temples and found that there may be insurmountable obstacles caused by the insular governance practices of the other temple, some of which exist in my temple as well. Victor and I were both a bit discouraged by this problem, but we returned to the iterative models that we have been learning and decided that we will still figure out a way to collaborate, because that’s what we are really excited about, and my temple’s leadership are also very supportive of our working together to help the sangha to flourish and transition in both new and familiar ways. We were able to, without getting too deeply into it due to time constraints, consider our situation within the lens our fledgling understandings of design thinking. Our next steps are to speak with the our respective ministerial teams & boards, hopefully employing some of the skills and insights we have recognized from practicing empathic interviewing.

I interviewed and observed a friend of mine hauling and restocking firewood at her cabin. While I was focused on practicle solutions, during the interview process I was struck by how my friend valued some of the challenges involved in doing the task. Within some aspects of the chore, she would not want to trade the internal benefits she gains from these challenges for the ease of a more efficient process. So, my practical solutions had to be modified/tempered by her aesthetic and emotional experience. Sometimes what is most efficient is not most benefitial.

Clark Kellogg

Week 4 – Design Thinking - Step-by-Step Exercises and Practice in Human Centered Design

Clark Kellogg, CRC Cohort

Design Thinking for Social Change, Prof. Goldberg

Assignment 4, October 24, 2025

Empathic Interview

Reflection

Context

My wife has Parkinson’s Disease. In May and June on this year, she had two brain surgeries to implant electrodes in her brain which are connected to a pulse generator implanted in her chest. This device, called Deep Brain Stimulation or DBS sends electrical pulses to the brain which helps control the physical symptoms of Parkinson’s Disease.

The DBS system runs on electricity distributed from device implanted in her chest. The device needs to be recharged periodically. I conducted my empathic interview with Christina to understand how she recharges her DBS device.

The Interview

I conducted a 30-minute observational interview with her while she recharged the battery implanted in her chest. The interview took place in the room where she recharges the device. I videotaped most of the interview and transcribed the audio. (These are also submitted).

Of all the user interviews I’ve done, this one is my favorite. Like so much of the design thinking praxis, the key is listening and observing without bias and with deep empathy. Interviewing my wife (with whom I’ve been in a 46-year conversation) gave me fresh insight into an activity I know well but had never experienced from her point of view. I loved getting out of my own way (and hers) and learning anew about something I “already knew.” Thank you design thinking.

The video interview shows all the steps of Christina charging her device. As she showed how it’s done and explained what she was doing, one sees how the charging system is confusing, awkward, and cumbersome. When asked if the charging system is easy for her to use, she said, “Not really. It's not... It's not designed like an apple computer. It doesn't have a beautiful feel and touch. It doesn't look beautiful. It's kind of boring looking.” Later in our interview she summed it up perfectly, “Well, it's not nice feeling. It doesn't feel nice… It's nothing that I'm going to say, “Oh, good, I get to charge today. Oh, great.” That's not gonna happen. It's more of making sure it gets done, it gets done properly.”

Along the way, Christina revealed her feelings about having Parkinson’s Disease, her frustrations with the physical charging objects, and how charging the DBS makes her anxious.

When I asked her about feeling anxious, she said, “I feel anxious because Parkinson’s is kind of a big deal. And having this, having gone through the surgery – it was a really big deal – it's a lot of mechanics, too.” She continued, “It’s all good but it's not human feeling. My grandchildren call me a cyborg.” She talked about how charging the system makes her feel. “It makes me anxious because it's part of the disease.
This treatment, and I feel very fortunate to have the treatment, deep brain stimulation, but it causes me to be front and center around the Parkinson's and the DBS. And, I'd rather be watching Seinfeld without this thing, I've been watching it with the charging collar around my neck.”

The next thing Christina said is one of the most powerful insights I’ve ever heard, “It’s all good, but it's not human feeling. Charging brings it all front and center.”

I encourage you to watch the video of this interview. You will see Christina struggling with the charging device and with Parkinson’s Disease. She is honest, fully present, and beautiful. Of course, I am part of her life with Parkinsons, but doing this interview gave me a new view of her experience. It also brought forth a completely unprofessional welling up of love and tenderness for her.

Interview transcript

Christina Kellogg showing and explaining how she charges her DBS system.

Interview conducted by Clark Kellogg at home.

Recorded Thursday, October 23, 2025

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xTLomw-e5Ll41f_rBlw4sRt0KOqIQSkT/view?usp=drive_link

Context: We conducted the interview in the room Christina recharges her DBS battery once a week. We began with Christina walking me through how she recharges from start to finish. The transcript and video begin after she has opened a trunk containing two boxes of equipment related to DBS charging. She also picked up a battery pack that was sitting on the floor near a plug and behind a stool. I asked her why she kept all these things in this room. She told me to make it easier.

What's in these boxes?

It’s not anything I deal with on a weekly basis like I do the other things. I’ll have to find out what this does. I’ve focused on the charging. This is the charging box with my name on it. I guess that means its mine. This is a collar; it’s really sort of a collar. When I’m charging if I get up to go to the kitchen the charger gets off balance. Oh, sorry. This is a… 
This is a... I don't know what you call this, a collar. It's really sort of a collar. 


And you wear that? When do you wear that? 


While I'm charging. I see. And it tells me when the battery is fully charged.  

Now, you're taking your vest off. 
Why are you doing that?

Well, you want to have one layer of, um, some kind of fabric between the charging system and my body. But two is too much. I see. And also, it's just too awkward. So... so, I'm going to put the charger - this little guy – into this collar.


And let's take it just a little look at this collar.

Yeah, it's charging yolk. It doesn't feel very nice. 


Now, I see there's another one in your box over here. Do you use two?

Yes. Actually, yeah. I never understood why there are two. But this is a weight, and this is used to keep everything where it's supposed to be. 


I see. So... Does it do that very well? 


Not really. It's not... It's not designed like an apple computer. It doesn't have a beautiful feel and touch. It doesn't look beautiful. It's kind of boring looking. But so, this is the charger. And this is going to go on this side. This is the balance. It keeps it, helps it stay where it's supposed to stay. So, I'm going to put this in. 


So, you're putting that into the collar?

Yeah. Uh huh. With the counterbalance to it. Oh, yeah, I have to turn it on. Yeah, the turn on buttons. Oh, it's turned on. You can see the little green light. Yes. It's beeps. It makes me think we're going to explode. So, you need to get this in the right position. This beep, beep, beep, means it’s just looking for the charge. Um, when it finds the right spot, it stops beeping. Ah... Sometimes you have to fiddle with it a little bit to get it to stop. There's a little green light. Yes. Can you see it? 
Yes, we can see that. It's awkward. I can see it, but I have to look down with my peripheral prison. that I can see that there's a green light right there. I'm looking at it go with my side. Mm hmm. Then I'm all hooked up. Yeah. It stopped beeping. I see. Now, I go, sit down, it might start beeping me again. Mm hmm.

And so now you're hooked up.

I'm hooked up. And you're charging, charging. And how does that charge the piece that's inside your chest? 
It's a battery, and it's charging into the device?

That's a really good question. This is another part of what makes me crazy. This makes me all crazy.

So, when you say it makes you crazy. I might know what that means, but tell me more about what it means that makes you crazy. 


Um... It makes me anxious. Anxious.

Anxious? And it makes you anxious because you're... What makes you anxious about that?

Well, because Parkinson’s is kind of a big deal. And having this, having gone through the surgery - it was a really big deal-it's a lot of mechanics, too. It’s all good. It's not human feeling. It's not human feeling. So, I’m like a cyborg. My children call me a cyborg. My grandchildren call me a cyborg. And this, I don't know where that's beeping. 


Earlier, you said that it beeps, when it's not where it should be. Right. What does that, hmm? 


If, somehow, I move. Oh, I get up, and then, I go and get some ice cream. Uh, my movement all around the kitchen might cause this to get off balance.

Oh, so when it's off the target, it beeps?

It beeps, yeah.

Oh, and then what do you do?

I adjusted, so it stops breathing. I see. 
Once it gets adjusted, it should be able to do its whole, um, recharging smoothly.

And before, it started to beep. You were saying that I wanted to go back if I could, but you said, This whole thing makes me anxious, I think, you said. Yes, yes. 
And I ask you, what about it makes you anxious?

Because it's part of their disease.
This treatment, and I feel very fortunate to have the treatment, deep brain stimulation. But it causes me to be front and center around the Parkinson's and the DBS. And, I'd rather be watching Seinfeld without this thing, I've been watching it with the charging collar around my neck.

So, this seems kind of a complicated, to me, at least. I'm observing you... with counterbalances, and battery packs, and a collar around your neck, how long do you wear this?

It usually takes about an hour to recharge. Wow. 
I was surprised at how long it takes to recharge. I thought it was less than that. Yeah. 
But it does take a while.

Just I'm understanding. Part of this is the symbolic piece. It's evidence that you have heart attacks disease. Yes, yes. And part of it seems, I'm just trying to open this question up for you to respond to. It seems like there's other parts of it, as well, that are about, perhaps, the device itself, or set up, or something.

Uh, can you ask the question again?

There was... Well, part of it, you've said that it symbolizes for you that you have Parkinson’s. Are there other parts about the setup, the equipment, the procedure that also make you anxious? 


I don't know how to answer that question. It makes me be front center with the disease. And there's an awkwardness in all of this, you know, because I can't help but think that... an engineer, engineer, designer, designed it. 


Could you talk a little more about the awkwardness? That's the word I think I was keying on before. I didn't understand about that. 


Well, it's not nice feeling. It doesn't feel nice. It feels... 
It feels... Shush. It's nothing that I'm going to go, “Oh, good, I get to charge today. Oh, great.” That's not gonna happen. It's more of making sure it gets done, it gets done properly.

So, it's a chore. Certainly not a joy.

Yes. Well, it's a joy in that I can do this, that I can... that I have this, um, that I’m available for, um, more, um… what I'm trying to say? I’m losing my train of thought again. You're available for more? For, um... new research. Other ways to get at this problem.

You say you're available. What does that mean?  

It means that I'm not too old.
Because of surgery, they don't do that much on people over eighty. And I'm 77... I was available, um…


So, this will take this... So, you'll sit like this, watching television, uh, for up to an hour. Yes. And then what happens when it's charged? How do you know when it's time to take it off? 


Beep is a different rhythm. I see. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. 


So, we could probably sit here for a while and chat, and eventually, it would start a different sound. Different, rhythm, yeah. Mm. And you recognize that rhythm, then. Yes. Okay, let's, we could... 
Well, we're talking a little bit more, and perhaps it'll charge, and perhaps it'll finish it, perhaps it won't. I'm hearing you talk about two things. One is, the... the benefit of this system, in terms of how you live with Parkinson's disease. And then I'm hearing you talk about sort of the mechanics of the system, the design of it, the fact that this is a chore and not a joy. What are some of the things that bother you so much, if so much? What are some of the things that irk you or irritate you, or maybe just inconvenience you about this cycle of charging? 


Well, I think the big thing is, as I've said, as I say, it just doesn't feel nice. It doesn't. Mm hmm. It doesn't look interesting. Um... I think it's those things most of all. These are the things I think about.

Are there, are there things that you, uh, as you go through this, we sometimes, um, make up or invent other ways of doing things to avoid the problems that they come with? 
Are there any things that you have noticed that you do, perhaps a little differently than the directions, in order to finish this task every week?

No.

So, it's pretty much, um, by the book, if you will. 
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Let's pretend that the system has started its finish beep, that beep, beep, beep, beep. And so, um, show me how you then, uh, what happens after the thing indicates that the, that the stimulator in your chest is fully charged. What happens next?

Then I put it up, take it all off. (video accidently stopped)

As we wrap up our interview, I just wanted feedback a few things to you and make sure I understood everything. That when you charge your DBS system each week, you go through quite a process here of putting on a charging collar, and finding the location where the charge is connected, and then you wait for about an hour for that to finish, and there's a series of beeps that tell you when it's charging, and when it isn't, and then when it's finished. And then you take all of that, and you put it away into this, uh, your grandma's trunk, you put the charging dock back on the floor, so it can recharge, and then you go about whatever you're doing in the evening, and you do it once a week, usually on Monday nights, you said. And that's because you, why do you have to do it once a week?

Why? We don't have to do it once. We can do it twice a week. We can do it three times. 
But I don't want to spread it out.

So, tell me about why you do it once a week. Oh, we do it once, because it's simple. It's important to remember to do it. So, if you hop around, and one week is this day, and then we get this day, you know, it gets to be complicated, we start missing. 
In the city of time frame.

So, it's a way to remember. It's a routine. I see. Are there things about the charging routine or devices that I haven't explored with you that you want to add to this before we, um, wrap up our time together?

Um, no, I don't think so. I think we've come here. 


When you look forward out a few years, do you think the system will be different for people that, uh, might have DBS surgery in the future? 
And if so, what would you hope it didn't like for them?

Well, I hope it’s designed better. And I hope it's even more… 
a lot of what makes this work is that the brain has been so mapped. over the years. Mm hmm. That the surgeons know how to address specific, um... problems or symptoms, you know, at the various areas where people are suffering.
So, I would think that that would get better, although it's quite good now, and I think that it would improve, and that they'll continue to learn more about brain in general.

Yeah. Well, this has been really informative. I appreciate you going through this with me, and good luck with your charging as the time as the weeks roll away. Thanks again.

Link to videos of interview:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xTLomw-e5Ll41f_rBlw4sRt0KOqIQSkT/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S0kOKrDZML6DRT5Mhip4WT10Ht_Yx5o1/view?usp=drive_link

Deb Anderson.

I interviewed my neighbor about her process of walking/exercising her dog. I chose her because I have always been impressed with her commitment to this daily task. I know she spends a great deal of time preparing, driving to the beach, taking a 40-minute walk, cleaning the sandy dog and coming home—and usually twice a day. I went in with a preconceived idea of what I thought the problem was, and thankfully though learning of how to conduct a good interview and implementing in that spirit, I came out rather scratching my head. Thankfully.

This week’s work has helped me understand how we frame a design challenge shapes what we can see. At first, I thought framing meant narrowing down a problem, but now I know that framing begins with choosing language that opens new possibilities and listening carefully. I began by asking, “How can I make walking the dog more efficient?” and then I reframed it by asking, “How might we make walking the dog more reflective or restorative?” That shifted everything, invited in creativity and focused her need on meaning rather than mechanics.  

Through empathic interviewing, I realized that real insight comes from listening beneath the surface — noticing not just what people do, but how they feel while doing it. Her greater need wasn’t about how to make her routine more; it was about her time for peace and self-renewal. Seeing that helped me understand that design isn’t only about solving problems — it’s about supporting moments that give life texture and significance.

Making meaning from observations feels like weaving: each story, gesture, or emotion is a piece of yard that, when woven reveals patterns of need and possibility, perhaps different from what we had originally planned and even more beautiful for the organic process.  Empathic interviewing has widened my design lens by centering the human experience rather than the artifact. It taught me that thoughtful design begins with curiosity and compassion — and that sometimes the best “solution” is simply creating space for more beauty, reflection, or ease in everyday life. I’m beginning to see that framing and empathy are not separate steps, but partners in an ongoing process of listening, reimagining, and co-creating with others.

Design Activity: The Annual Thanksgiving Dinner Giveaway

A close friend has organized this event over the past 15 years, and I have volunteered at the 2-day event for more than 10 of those years. The event has grown from serving 25 to 30 families to serving close to 200 families. This has required lots of organizing and constant reiterations of what that initial design looked like. So, we thought it would be best to meet to discuss what needed to take place to avoid chaos on the prep day and on the day of the ‘basket’ giveaway.

This is how it began and continues to evolve.

We started with brainstorming ideas on how to make the process run more efficiently and smoother for the organizers, volunteers, and the families receiving all the dinner items. This required listing all necessary tasks to be completed, establishing a timeline for pick up and delivering of said items, and organizing and assigning volunteers to complete the tasks required for each day.

Prep Day activities:

· Shop for all grocery items. This includes all fresh, dry, and canned items.

· Schedule a time for the pick-up dry and canned items to have them delivered to the YMCA after operating hours to allow the volunteers to separate and pack them into individual bags for family pick up the next day.

· Stage all newly packed bags for easy distribution to ensure each family receives all the necessary ingredients to have an enjoyable holiday. Each family will receive two bags of groceries containing the dry and canned items.

Giveaway Day activities: 

· Early AM grocery run to pick up the fresh and temperature sensitive items to deliver them to the YMCA.

· Separate items, bag them, and stage the bags alongside the other bags to ensure each family receives all intended ingredients.

· Assign volunteers to individual tasks to eliminate confusion and prevent congestion during pick up time.

· Review the list of families to ensure every family receiving a basket is accounted for.

· Confirm that everyone knows their assignments prior to the doors opening.  

After each event we meet to discuss what went well and what didn’t. We invite a diverse group of participants; the organizers, volunteers, and some members of the families that received the gift baskets. This way, we get honest feedback from everyone involved in the process. We started by establishing guidelines around creating a safe space to allow everyone to feel safe sharing their ideas and opinions. This has helped us to continue to operating a well-run operation.                                    

R. Lomax

Lesson#4

Course Name:DTSC                    

 Empathetic Interview With a Musician

My 1st question was how long has she played piano, and what made her interested in this instrument?

She replied, she’d started playing at about 5 years old. 1st she started trying to play songs she’d heard playing on the stereo in her home. She really didn’t remember why there was a piano in her home, because no one else played. When her mother noticed her interest and desire to play she enrolled her in piano lessons.

I asked if there were any difficulties in trying to read and understand music at such a young age?

She said it was more difficult to stay focused and practice as much as she was supposed to, because she wanted to play with her toys and go outside to play with friends more than she wanted to practice.

I sympathized I would imagine that would be very difficult for a young child to be that disciplined.

She said as she got older, she enjoyed practicing the piano and later learning to play the organ more than she like playing outside. She also developed a pretty good ear for notes and vocal harmony. Even when she did spend time with her friends, she was always trying to teach them parts of a song, and have them be a choir.

I then asked how long has she played professionally?

She said when she was 16 years old, she got her 1st paying job as a musician for $25 a week, playing for a church. She is now in her 60’s. She said when she was a teen, she didn’t know of very many church musicians that were being paid. As time went on, the word spread of how talented she was, as well as reliable. She also started getting offers to play for weddings, funerals, accompany soloists, as well as play for various groups in the area. All of which payed pretty well.

She said playing for the church she currently plays for is wonderful because there is a full band, and they play well together which makes it a lot of fun. Not only does it pay well, but it comes with benefits and vacation.

I asked if there is anything she doesn’t like about working as a musician?

She said sometimes the people she plays for can be very demanding, rude and hard to work with, but that doesn’t happen often. 

I then asked what she enjoys most about playing?

She replied music soothes the soul, brings joy and has the ability to change the entire mood of those that are listening. Herself included.

Katherine Whitney

October 25, 2025

I am currently traveling, so my ability to do the assignment fully is compromised. However, I did get to spend some time with a French friend whom I’ve known for over 30 years. We don’t see each other often, but we have become very close and have shared a lot of friendship, births and deaths over the years.

She has lived for 30 years in a tiny, 300 square foot 1-bedroom apartment that has been designed for efficiency. There are cupboards everywhere specifically designed for storing all the items of daily living. It’s a bit like being on a boat. One of the most ingenious designs is a long oval table top that slides through a wall that separates the tiny kitchen from the main living/dining space. When the table is slid into the kitchen, it serves for food prep. Then it slides into the living area and can squeeze an intimate setting for 6.

She had my husband and me over for dinner - she loves to cook, loves to highlight “authentic” French cuisine. And she is super extroverted and hospitable. She also invited a couple of our friends over whom she’d never met, curious as she was about meeting new people.

So under these circumstances I couldn’t do the assignment fully. And I was further compromised by conducting it in French. BUT, I asked her about cooking large dinners in such a tiny space. I noticed that certain things had already been considered - in addition to the sliding table, there was a small pass-through window in the wall separating the two rooms, where a serving dish could be placed to create more room on the table. All the dishes and serving things she has can fit through this narrow window! Her life has been very optimized by this space. So an empathic interview would be required to find out how much more we could do.

She admitted that the large pile up of dishes over the course of the dinner and the chaos and mess it created in the tiny kitchen was a burden, exacerbated by the lack of counter space, since when dishes are being cleared, people are still sitting at the table, which has been pulled into the living area, and therefore not in the kitchen! But her body language and expression - that very French exhalation through pursed lips - indicated that she wasn’t terribly bothered by that. Maybe she was used to the inconvenience or it was not so much a bother in comparison to having people over. I imagine if I’d had more time to really dig in, that’s an area where we could have found some ideas or possibilities. My husband jokingly suggested that we just use fewer plates, reusing the same plate for main course and cheese course, and in mock horror she dismissed that idea. So in a longer interview I would be listening for cultural norms and ways of living.

One story that came out during our dinner interview was that the architect for the project of refitting her tiny apartment 30 years ago had been trying out a new carpenter who he’d never worked with before, but hoped to work with if this project went well. And there was one critical thing that was completely overlooked in the design of the dining experience. The wall that separates the kitchen and dining room has shelves on each side for storage. This creates about a foot of an overhang over the table, and under that overhang, a bit of space for things to be tucked out of the way. Things you might want access to but that there isn’t space for in the center of a fully set table. My friend pointed out that the height of that space was just a millimeter short of the height of a bottle of wine. It would have been very convenient to be able to tuck the ubiquitous (at French meals) bottle of wine out of the way, to clear more room and to reduce accidental knocking over and spillage. If there had been more conversation during the design phase of the project, perhaps some empathic interviewing and deep listening about how life would happen at that dining table, the designer might have imagined what might need to be tucked into that convenient space and thereby off the center of the table and made the shelving just a hair higher!

I appreciated this exercise, even though I wasn’t able to do it in its fullest incarnation, because I can see how helpful it will be when we set about doing the project with our cohort. The steps we’re encouraged to take mirror that of museum exhibition development, which I’ve done as a career. We brainstorm, ideate, test and prototype and then evaluate after installation. But this class brings that process to a whole new level for me, with its focus on slowing down and drawing out the research process and bringing in much more empathy. More recently I have been trained in active listening as a Stephen Minister - a skill I didn’t really have for much of my museum career. I look forward to to taking that skill, my previous experience, and adding this new instruction to future design challenges.

Katherine,

Despite your circumstances, your keen sense of observation allowed you to see and hear many important moments during your dinner. I appreciated the cross-cultural understanding of the moment when "her body language and expression - that very French exhalation through pursed lips - indicated that she wasn’t terribly bothered by that." That is a beautiful small detail that is kinda priceless.

Victor Ogundipe

Design Thinking For Social Change

Week 4 (10/25/25)

Empathetic Interview

My empathetic interview was with my daughter on the art of flossing and brushing her teeth before bed. One of the things that I noticed about empathetic interviewing right away is that there can be a joy that people experience in being engaged as a subject matter expert. The process of coming to a person for help, acknowledging that you have much to learn from them, and that they have much to teach you creates a space of openness.

It is interesting, maybe especially in watching children, to see the process of them embracing their knowledge in real-time, in some ways the process seems to be an unexpected lightbulb moment, both in regard to a realization of the extent of their knowledge and maybe the subtle realization of their own design consciousness. As my daughter walked me through the process of brushing her teeth she seemed to go through these moments of realization.

It also emerged that there can be a joy in designing and living out that design. It also dawned on me that one of the things that makes design thinking both highly accessible and challenging is that people design by default, they just may often be unaware that they are indeed designing (and designers). One of the challenges of design is helping develop an awareness of this natural process so that we can bring more of our consciousness into it, yet maintaining naturalness. This balance of greater awareness and consciousness while maintaining a level of naturalness can be quite a balancing act.

It also emerged that investigating design can be funny, there are some undefined, less tread areas, or surprises that emerge in the process of design. These can serve as opportunities to find fun in design and serve as a ripe place to meander for a while to see if any nuggets for greater alignment in design emerge. It is also interesting to observe the role of personal preference in design, especially if you are designing for a broad group where preference could widely vary. It is interesting to think of how you can help account for this, finding ways to design in a manner that accommodates personal preference. In learning more about my daughter’s design thinking in relation to flossing and brushing I enjoyed some of these unexpected moments.

It was also interesting to observe that sometimes people don’t enjoy their own design, sometimes this may be due to their available tools, or the fact that they really don’t want to participate in the action: design under duress. It is also interesting to observe that people may like parts of a process, but not the whole process (in my daughter’s case enjoying flossing, but not brushing). Here it is interesting to think about how to handle this design issue (the unevenness of experience throughout a process). While I would imagine many ways to attempt to address this. I think that this is an aspect of design thinking that requires much nuance and care.

It is also interesting to learn where people's minds are when they are participating in a designed process. For instance, my daughter doesn’t like brushing her teeth, and while she is brushing her teeth, she shared that she thinks about what it looks like inside her mouth, deep in the recesses of her teeth. I don’t know what I thought that she would be thinking about, but it was not this. I would have imagined that she would have been daydreaming about something that she likes to do as opposed to her imagining a David Cronenburg-esque closeup of the inner recesses of her mouth. But this made me think deeply about the context in which a designed process takes place and the designer’s ability to point the mind in directions that may help the person executing the design enjoy it more.

Reflection

Empathetic interviewing is critical to the design process because it opens up the world. How can you understand what is needed without talking to people whose lives will be intimately engaged with the design? In many ways, empathetic interviewing is like going on an adventure, an adventure of gaining an understanding of how others understand, experience, and make sense of the world. Empathetic interviewing changes us in the sense that we can never view the topic or issue the same again. This is probably the most important part of the design process because we don’t know where this adventure will take us. This broadening of view and shift away from seeing solely through one’s own eyes is where the spiritual aspects of design thrive.

Leonard Bailey

10/23/25 - Lesson 4 - DTSC

Journal Entry – Framing Design Challenges + Empathic Interviewing 

What I Learned About Framing Challenges:

After doing the empathic interview and looking back at all my notes, I realized how important it is to slow down and really sit with the data. It’s easy to just notice surface-level problems—like a dull knife or missing seasonings—but the real design challenge is often underneath all that. It’s about why those moments matter and what they reveal about deeper needs (like feeling rushed, craving comfort, or not having tools that match someone’s style of cooking).

Framing the design challenge means stepping back and asking:

“Ultimately, what is the person trying to achieve?”

“Where’s the tension or the breakdown between their goals and their current experience?”

So instead of “make chopping onions easier,” the challenge might actually be:

“How can we help home cooks create a smoother, seamless, and more  joyful flow in their kitchen practices?”

How This Affects My Design Lens:

Empathic interviewing changes everything. I’m learning that people often don’t articulate their struggles directly—and that part of my job as a designer is to listen between the lines. Body language, tone, what they don’t say… It all gives us clues.

It’s definitely making me more humble. I’m starting to move away from assuming I know what a community or user needs, and leaning more into curiosity, observing, and co-creating solutions. My lens is shifting from “problem-solver” to “listener and guide.”

Caroline Lee

DTSC Lesson 4

Empathic Interview Reflections

I interviewed our church office volunteer , Chris, about creating the bulletin used during worship. I spoke to her at the church office in front of the computer where she does this task. I did my best to try to observe her facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. to try to gain insight about her experience of making bulletins in addition to the verbal information she was communicating. My observations were:

1. Thoughtful questions generate thoughtful answers. I didn’t start out with well thought-out questions, so in the beginning of the interview, it was just mostly a description of what happens. It was only after I asked a few probing questions that her emotions and energy came out.
2. She takes most joy in the creative and collaborative aspect of the task. Her face and voice softened when she was describing the creative part of the job as well as when she was expressing appreciation of what others bring to the task. 
3. I can tell she appreciated the opportunity to talk about this rather mundane task which she has been doing for a while. As she was describing her work, I noticed her coming up with new ideas on how to improve her task. The interview process brings new insights to both the interviewer and the interviewee.

M. Cross

Design Thinking

Prof. Neil Goldberg

Lesson 4

Reflection - Steps

Empathic Interviewing

I found the information presented regarding empathic interviewing (EI) interesting. After watching the video, I realized I use EI every day in my business. I listen to my clients as they describe their pet(s) needs and design my care and services to fit that particular need. Services are tailored individually, not leading but suggesting according to what I can provide (design. Sometimes my design benefits the client in ways for which they didn't realize there was a need.

I realize empathic interviewing is a vital tool in that it removes the responsibility of designing without clear direction but allows for input directly form the source. Once the interview is conducted listening for the clues the client gives, the scope of your lens for design and creativity is greatly broadened.  

I may be wrong but it would seem without EI, there would be a tendency to replicate the same design and hope it fits the need.

For this exercise, I interviewed my assistant for his input on adding a new service. Though I did not include the actual interview response, the following is the content:

CONCEPT: To add additional service to existing offerings.

Because of the demographic changes in current community and increase in pets and requests for services, the idea is how to add dog walking to our services despite limited work force (owner/operator and 1 independent contractor.

• determine the territory considering limited transportation 
• determine need to add IC's or employees
• advertising
• possibly poll existing clients in immediate neighborhood
• need for separate app for dog walking
• service pricing

INTERVIEW/BRAINSTORMING 

Reached out to current IC for input/ideas on above

R. Lomax

Lesson#4

Course Name:DTSC

The empathetic interview is key in the discovery process of design. I think it is important to learn as much as possible about the environment and persons that will be utilizing what is being designed. By gathering vital information and background, this will sharpen ones design lens and hopefully produce a design that will be enjoyed by the people it’s meant to serve.

Clark Kellogg, Reflective Question Assignment

Step-by-Step Exercises and Practice

Design Thinking, Prof. Neil Goldberg

November 6, 2025

Reflection Question: If empathic interviewing is such a key part of the design process, how does that effect your design lens?

I conducted an empathic interview with my wife about charging her DBS system. I’ve done hundreds of empathic interviews over the years but interviewing Christina was like no other. It was the first time I interviewed someone with whom I’ve had nearly 50 years of deep knowing.

I was a bit stunned by it. The “stun” came in the form of two revelations (which, in my soul, I already knew, but this is the power of revelation or insight)!  The first revelation was how the quality of our communication in the interview shifted. We weren’t problem solving or making decisions. Neither one of us was an expert, and we had no need of an outcome.

When I’ve done empathic interviews with “people not my wife,” the contrast between the interview content and our casual conversation is not as stark –I don’t have such intimate knowledge of the person I’m interviewing. I understood anew the power of the mindset and purposeful structure of the empathic interview. Said a bit differently, if it can create new insights and compassion for people who have been talking with each other for so long, then empathic interviewing is more powerful than I thought!

The second revelation was the impact of the interview on both of us. Christina realized she had never actually thought through the charging process. Instead, she had just followed “doctor’s orders.” The interview allowed her to question the question and see the process with mire clarity and control over it.

My half of the revelation was how much compassion I felt for Christina and what she goes through physically and emotionally to keep her pulse generator working. Of course, this is the job of an empathic interview; it showed me what I hadn’t seen, heard, felt, or become aware of before, even though I usually am present and often help with charging.

How does it affect my design lens? It becomes my design lens. Without it, how can we design anything of value? Full stop.

Postscript: I sent the video and write up of my interview with Christina to the person we worked with at the maker of the DBS system, Boston Scientific. It made a powerful impact on Rich (the rep). Not surprising (but delightful) he said to me, “I had no idea.” That’s all I needed to hear. That’s the power of the empathic interview for human-centered designing.

Amanda Weaver

Design Thinking for Social Change

Lesson 4: Reflection

I interviewed my husband about washing dishes, something that is usually my chore. He cooks and I wash up. I realized part of the way through that I had gone in with expectations about how he would see the process and how he would feel about having had to take over the chore while I was sick. I had to make a conscious decision to stop focusing on my expectations and just listen to what was being said. I also realized that avoiding yes and no questions was harder than I thought it would be. Despite going into the interview with preset questions, I struggled to come up with follow up questions that were open ended and not leading in the moment. Unsurprisingly, we veered off on a tangent, and it took some time to recover. At the end of it, I came away with a better understanding of how my husband views the mundane chore of dishes and found that we have very different ideas about what we would consider the pain points of the process in our kitchen.

I realized that empathic interviews are a powerful tool. In my day job, I work with event design using survey responses and demographic data. Much of the design is based on how we want people to feel at different points in the program and what we think people need based on numbers and short answers. Now I’m wondering just how many of our assumptions are wrong. I found new insights about an everyday chore with someone I’ve shared the task with for years. When it comes to events, what would we find out if we did empathic interviews instead of endless surveys? 

When you’re done, journal about what you learned about framing design challenges, making meaning out of your observations and insights.

Initially, I approached this project through the lens of my own lived experience with grief, which naturally shaped how I understood the problem and potential solutions. However, engaging in empathic interviews significantly broadened my design lens. Listening to the stories and perspectives of others helped me move beyond a self-referential approach and into a deeper awareness of the diverse ways people experience grief and support. I discovered that what I believed was needed was only one perspective among many. The interviews revealed consistent patterns—particularly around hesitation, uncertainty, and the gap in care after the funeral—that I would not have fully recognized on my own. This process shifted my focus from designing based on personal insight to designing from collective understanding. As a result, my approach became more inclusive, grounded, and responsive, ensuring that the Rhythm of Grace model is not shaped by one experience, but is capable of supporting multiple individuals within a broader community context.

This process affects my design lens because it requires humility, patience, and openness. I realize that people’s experiences are often more complex than surface-level observations. Through empathic interviewing, I learn that meaningful design comes from listening to stories, recognizing patterns, and understanding emotional context rather than simply trying to solve problems quickly. It teaches me to design with people instead of only for them.

It also changes how I interpret observations and insights. Instead of viewing feedback as criticism or data alone, I begin to see it as an opportunity to better understand human needs and relationships. This deepens the emotional and social responsibility connected to design. Whether I am creating an event, a ministry experience, a brand, or a digital platform, empathic interviewing reminds me that every design decision impacts real people.

For me personally, empathic interviewing strengthens a design lens centered on inclusion, empowerment, and connection. It encourages me to create experiences where people feel heard, respected, and represented